Post by Dr. FlonkensteinBeing tired of lurking, on Wed, 28 Jan 2004 18:31:26 +0000, O'Ryan Wells
Post by tbPost by Dr. FlonkensteinPost by tbI am doing a pilot research study as part of my BA graduation
requirement
Post by Dr. FlonkensteinPost by tbat Kepler College (www.kepler.edu) and am looking for another 125
volunteers for the study.
The focus of the pilot study is to determine whether a meaningful and
statistically significant relationship can be found between
tissue/cell/Schuessler salts and the natal Sun sign as historical
astrological theory suggests.
There is no relationship, that's as simple as that. Just study some
astronomy and learn about gravitational forces so you can forget about
this astrology bullshit.
This is the common error which I refer to, see also later, and again later
still.
Here we go.
Post by Dr. FlonkensteinPost by tbYou seem as irrationally wedded to your belief structure (Astronomy)
without doing any actual research on the subject you are attempting to
rubbish.
Science is not a belief stucture, because people who have to believe just
prove that they are uncertain about their assertion. Like in the
proposition "I think it is going to rain tomorrow". This in contrast to a
proposition of the kind "Ice melts above 0° Celcius".
It is a belief in the sense that Mathematics is believed to be able to
encompass reality. It can be demonstrated that it does not. What is the
equation for an emotion or spiritual insight? Mathematicians even admit that
there are areas of mathematics which does not correspond in any way to the
'real' world. It corresponds only to an 'ideal' world. This ideal world
filled with ideal Gases, liduids, solids, and only Hydrogen atoms, is a
fantasy world, there is always a difference in every measurment science
makes when compared to reality. It even admits its own Uncertainty, in
quantum theory. The laws of science are the laws of the human mind, they are
our creation, and we are in the process of finding out how close they are to
reality, if we ever get to examine reality. We are merely looking in a
mirror at ourselves looking in the mirror.
Post by Dr. FlonkensteinPost by tbGo-gel-an; I may have misspelled his name, apologies) attempted to
disprove astrology by testing a large number of successful athletes only
to validate the fact that they all had Mars in a particularly prominent
place in their natal charts.
This is the experimental data which you request later, obviously you did not
bother to read my post being so confident of your superior position. This
elucidates my point about the 'common error' which I also clearly indicate
in the post. Astronomers confuse the Sign and the Constellation, in view of
this the whole argument of precession is irrelevant, when astrologers say
this the astronomers become even more enraged and entranched in their belief
that it is all nonesense. Which you also ignore.
Post by Dr. FlonkensteinPost by tbAs this is one of the tenets of astrology the
result of this scientific study should be at least considered a
confirmation of the hypothesis, in strict scientific terms and further
research done. The attitude of astronomers is generally, to do no research
into what serious astrologers claim, (no one claims sun-sign-only
astrology is in any way accurate) and ignore evidence, but wave their
'gravitational forces' magic formula around as if that explains
everything. It explains nothing. The fact that every planet in the solar
system IS influenced by every other planet is obviously true.
Yes, it influences that some years are a few secondes longer or shorter
than others, big deal!
Again you ignore the substantial part of my post as well as mis-spelling
seconds. But I'm sure that was only a typing error. You should learn the
lesson of Kepler. Your cherished theory of everything may be wrong, and in
fact, in time it certainly will be. That is science not simply newtonian
classical mechanics and to hell with everything else I don't like.
Post by Dr. FlonkensteinPost by tbThe degree
to which that affects life is still debatable since we know very little
about the micro-effects of Gravity.
It would only point out that a passing truck has more micro-gravitational
effect than any
Are you so incoherent that you do not even finish sentences? Anyway, gravity
was only an example of an area of which we know little. The planets are also
connected through our awareness and it is this awareness which is the
primary study of astrology and other similar subjects, the means of study,
astrology, is what we are discussing here.
Post by Dr. FlonkensteinPost by tbThe division of the Zodiac is an arbitrary one. 0 Degrees of Aries is
DEFINED as such. It has NOTHING to do with the actual constellations off
the same name. If you knew anything about the theory of divination in
general you would not have made this common error.
What common error, be specific!
I specifically said the error is specifically that the specific Zodiacal
sign of Aries (Astrological) has nothing to do with the specific
constellation of the same specific name.
How much clearer do you want it? Divination sets up an arbitary framework
within which various aspects of the self, the world etc are analysed. In
other systems, (eg I Ching and Tarot) sometimes an element of randomness
helps to connect the process to the present moment. A 'quantum snapshot' of
the world as it were, that this analysis involves an 'art' does not mean it
is of no value. This is an old scientific prejudice.
Post by Dr. FlonkensteinPost by tbAstrologers do not help
this situation my baiting the astronomers and falling back into a mutual
slagging match.
Typical for fraudsters.
Another error you suffer from is that you assume that everyone who does not
share your belief structure is a fraud. That science is your belief
structure is clear since you seem to be able only to quote non-relevant
examples rather than applying the 'Method'. I have already said that:
Hypothesis: Astrology is a valid subject to study.
Empirical personal data tends to confirm this. (Not conclusive)
Independant Scientific Study seems also to confirm it. (More conclusive than
empirical data alone)
Ergo the hypothesis is corfirmed.
At this stage serious research should expand and the subject be developed.
Post by Dr. FlonkensteinPost by tbA clear rebuttal of the Sun-Sign astrology which appears
in newspapers would not do the astrological community any harm either.
I don't see how astrological wishful thinking ever can come over the level
of party conversations like "Hi, I saggitarius, and you...". They only
situation when some "astrological knowledge" comes in handy!
This statement only betrays your own ignorance of the methods and actual
uses of astrology. Personal growth and development of one's natural
abilities, which can be brought into sharp focus using astrological methods.
I have nothing to say in favour of 'popular' astrology.
Post by Dr. FlonkensteinPost by tbSince every serious astrologer knows that the more detail in a chart the
more accurate it gets.
You don't believe that yourself, don't you?
I neither believe nor disbeleive 'in' astrology. (see end para.) I have
seen and commented on one scientific study which produced interesting
results, there are doubtless others but I have not read them. This is
evidence which you refused to read let alone acknowledge. If you were a True
Scientist you would look at that data with an open mind, but I fear my
prediction is mostly true.
I admit that you haven't degenerated into insult, I congratulate you for
that.
Post by Dr. FlonkensteinPost by tbThere is a misconception of astrology by the
astronomers due to an incomplete understanding of the system (usually,
total ignorance) and a historical reluctance of the scientific community
in general to take many areas of legitimate research seriously.
How can do a research on a theory that has no foundations and no
experimental back-up?
Appart from the scientific study I mentioned previously, the 'back-up' comes
from analysing natal charts and noting the effects as they correspond to the
native. Astrology is an Art which uses a geometrical system of analysis, the
user must develop as his/her understanding of the procedure evolves.
Post by Dr. FlonkensteinPost by tbAn old Chemistry lecturer once told his class: "Don't hide ignorance, just
cure it."
Wise words.
Oh! exposing a theory based on wishful thinking and misleading the
gullible is now called "ignorance".
No. Your premise is wrong, hence you arrive at an erroneous conclusion. I do
not deny that many unscrupulous people try to decieve and mislead the
ignorant, that is merely a case for education. However to 'trash' a subject
which you know nothing about is not scientific behaviour. Having personal
experience of an uncommon 'major event' in my life clearly indicated by
Astrological analysis and for it to occurr, is 'personal experimental
back-up'. It is empirical evidence. Belief in Astrology or other systems
comes from an accumulation of such personal evidence. It is quite impossible
to convince anyone of their validity if they do not want to be convinced and
have not had the experiences which confirm it. And you won't get these from
trashy tabloid star signs.
You will not be convinced of the facts about astrology because your
perception is too polluted by the tosh that is generally spoken about it in
the public media. No evidence will convince you, just in the same way that
no scientific evidence will convince creationists that the world is more
than 6,000 odd years old. These are entrenched beliefs. Today's belief is in
science, but the meaning of that word is so miss-understood, even by some
scientists. The scientific establishment is conservative, radicals upset the
apple cart every now and again, until they become the establishment. Things
change. Newton's clockwork universe is dust in the wake of Einstein and
Quantum theory but there are still die hards who cling to the dream of a
nice safe, predictable, classical universe. Wake up, it's over.
My position is that I believe there is something interesting in Astrology
and other subjects currently 'forbidden-to-speak-of' that deserves more
scientific study by open minds.
O'Ryan Wells.
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